if it's not too late to weigh into the debate (i've been away!), nice call jimbo - i've been umming and ahhing about suggesting SITC myself. if nothing else, i think it was quite instrumental in breaking down the barriers for lots of my favourite 4 letter words out into mainstream regular useage. i'm sure it wasnt the first show to use abundant profanity or regularly call body parts by their favourite nicknames, but it was popular and with the clever use of the (rather unlikely) friendship showcasing charlotte's coy 50's sensibilities, samantha and miranda's call it like you see it attitudes and carrie's middle of those extremes, it appealed to a large range of women. and with those bodies and short, short skirts, probably appealed to a large range of blokes too.

i imagine shows like weeds and deadwood, to name but a few, might've been a little different had SITC not existed.

Ooh, just had a look at Californication - I like it a lot. I don't think the daughter's hair is black enough to be an Emily Strange clone. It's just the fringe - which is what hte kids are doing these days...

Ross, I think you need to go with ep9 of JFC as a meditation and allow it to unravel in its own time. It's like the big intake of breath before the climax.

Ross, wasn't there at least a redeeming Bill (Ed O'Neill) moment in it? He gets such good lines. I discovered recently that Milch wrote Al Swearengen specifically for Ed O'Neill, but they couldn't get him.

That is an interesting theory Catbrain - if I only I had been that interested by watching the ep.

Thank God there is only one ep to go.

Also, can anyone fill me in on what Butchie's implants actually are? Is it just fake hair? Hooks to suspend himself with? A failed brain? Horns?

Ross, I'm pretty sure there's only one episode to go in the first season.

Cissy gave me the absolute shits, being a complete harridan, however David Milch sees her nobility in the way that, when it comes down to it, she's out there with Shaun's photo, doing whatever she can to find him. Personally, I don't think that's enough to make up for her antisocial behaviour.

The Christian symbolism is coming in thick in JFC... I reckon that ep ties in heavily with how the disciples are depicted b/w Jesus' death and resurrection - he's gone, they don't know what's going on yet. It was probably a necessary ep (if that's what Milch is trying to portray), but I agree - it was pretty slow and crappy, and Cissy was a complete pain in the arse!

By the way people - John From Cincinatti is definitely losing the fight after this week's shocker of an episode.

I will keep watching but only because there is a mere three eps to go (hopefully) and I've come this far.

Maybe Channel 10 are waiting to see what the washup is from the first couple of Californications and going from there.

I still can't imagine it on free to air here, but I guess it's coming.

Catbrain - Kat is so awesome in Weeds. I can't wait to see what she's up to next. Amazing character. Makes Andy look mild and normal.

I don't understand. If Channel Ten can air Californication a mere fortnight after it first airs in the States, then why can't it air the show on or about the same day as they do in the States???

Gratuitous use of punctuation!!!???

I just realised that post may have been a spoiler of some sort and may also have sounded a bit (unintentionally) seedy...I wish I could edit my posts!! :)

holy crap the little girl from the nanny just socked Mulder in the jaw whilst topless.....twice!!!

I think I'm going to like californication!

By the way, is the podcast now regularly on Sunday nights?

Top Gear has the potential to single-handedly affect television (you can even watch it on Emirates flights now), but right now it's just a bloody good show.

I have an interest in cars as a result of Top Gear. In any other context this wouldn't even make sense.

I watch the second ep of Sports Night last night - The Apology - and Dan's rant about drugs being a health issue not a justice issue was VERY Toby. I think there was a much simpler validation of his position in the episode than there was ever the opportunity for in WW.

@markymarc: I definitely don't think of Top Gear as a car show. It's a comedy about three boys having their imaginary games brought to life, with possibly the best production values of any show on TV.

@Josh
I thought Thora Birch in "Ghost World" was first

@markymarc
You mean the human embodiment of Emily Strange? It scares me that she has manifested outside of emo schoolgirls' bags.

"24. (split screens in mainstream). Ever since 911 I have been expecting a remake of Invasion of the Body snatches (everytime there is a cultural fear of the unknown it comes out in SF). But that didn’t happen. What we got was show like 24 which dealt with the idea of cultural fear."

SOOOO agree... also just watched CALIFORNICATION.... really dug it, though the boobs are totally unnessary and the actress who plays his daughter is horrendous.

actually - ive really got to second BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. shame about the title, and the pedigree because its far and away one of the best show in production at the moment. Certainly in terms of the Sci-Fi lineage, I think the X-FILES is at least worthy to consider. And lets face it - its the 'discussion' about these tv shows that makes GAT such a great segment. I mean the dissagreement of SFU is still one of the best interrogations/analyses (sic) of that show i've heard in ages.

I think you could have a great discussion about whether or not 'TOP GEAR' or THE DAILY SHOW' really fundamentally affected tv genres?

And cultural importance should surely be a consideration, i think the comment about STAR TREK and its contribution is valid - but seriously THE WEST WING - a 'democrat' show that mostly ran throughout a 'republican' administration. For a lot of us, it became the fantasy government we wished that we had. I can only speak for myself but, watching dubya on the newsmade the west wing all the more poignant and compelling. Context can be incredibly important in shifting the experience of a show...

ok... shuffling off the critic-soapbox...sorry:)

Because stationery's clever.

Next week we shall see just how clever!

I think the state of political satire -especially in Australia - is pretty dire if we have to consider the Chaser boys and The Daily Show for GAT. They're great, but I'm not sure they're genre-busting.

I'm gonna get absolutely flailed here, but has anyone considered Sex and the City?

Bah forgot one.

Band of Brothers (that has to be in there surly).

Ok on a second go (now that I remember its for the last ten years)

Top Gear. (great if your a petrol head great if your not)

24. (split screens in mainstream). Ever since 911 I have been expecting a remake of Invasion of the Body snatches (everytime there is a cultural fear of the unknown it comes out in SF). But that didn't happen. What we got was show like 24 which dealt with the idea of cultural fear.

Doctor who.... yeah yeah I know, but its still on so I get to claim that one.

Life on Mars (truly unique show with great writing)

Dexter (brilliant concept and excellent writing)

Battlestar Galactica (part SF part soap part drama)

I am absolutely loving all this talk of GAT. Is there anything else you think is missing?

I'm sure the envelope will have all the answers next week when we do our summary.

Obviously a lot of people think West Wing, but what does the envelope think? And why have we started to anthropomorphise stationery?

@FulltimeCasual
We'll post the full list next week after we've done the summary, post-mortem, debrief, and explanation.

hey kids, long time listener, short term brett cropley cyber stalker.

anyhoo, just wondering if we can get that list of all the gats: all i cn remember are:
The Shield
The Wire
Six Feet Under
The Sopranos
Arrested Development
The Larry Sanders Show
Deadwood.

which ones did i miss?

Good call on Top Gear, Nigel P. It's been the rise and rise of special interest programs in recent years and TG really is the standout in that genre. I fully support its nomination - nerd made sexy.

Firstly "Language warning"

Ahh Channel 10, they always wonder why people download the series before they screen on channel 10. Then when they put on a good series (Torchwood, Battlestar Galactica, Veronica Mars, etc) they always cancel it halfway through the season, and replace it with what?? REPEATS.

Channel 10 F*** you, I've given up waiting for Idol, Bigbrother and I cant dance to finish when I wish to watch a show. I'm going to get people to download them for me and watch them this way instead (I'll probably get BSG on DVD before it screens). I got Torchwood before it screened here, but gave Channel 10 a chance and actually watched it but guess what I'm not going to stay up till midnight to watch it.

Hmm that was tamer than I though. I'm now going for a rant (and I guess a ban) on Ten forums. I've noticed they remove the forums for axed or moved shows rather quickly these days, so have to do it in the general forum.

BTW: GAT. West Wing vote, plus you can do a rant about how Channel 9 stuffed it up and how the ABC saved it. I'd also jump in with Top Gear "reimanged" which took a dull car show and made it interesting to the rest of the world. Dunno if its up there for an overall thing, but for changing the way car shows are done, its groundbreaking.

Welcome aboard jebo.

More on Milch: I was just listening to an old interview with him where he was asked why the strange mixture of such extremely foul language with Shakespearean cadence and style in Deadwood. He explained at length, based on a year of researching life around Deadwood during the gold rush, that the place was in fact a cesspool of expletives, and he had a grand theory that people in that situation needed to talk violent and threateningly in order not to have to resort to violence on a daily basis, like gorillas beating their chests. As for the Elizabethan phrasing, he argued the only reading matter people would have dipped into, or heard recited, in that environment would have been Shakespeare and the King James version of the Bible.

OK.

But after watching John from Cincinnati I'm convinced Milch just likes to hear his characters swear colourfully and simply enjoys the Elizabethan Age sentence constructions.

hi all,

long time listener, etc.

on the strength of your high praise lads(combined with my love of julian barrett), i bought a copy of the nathan barley dvd via amazon uk - so i can confirm that it is available. there were parts of it i adored (jb, his character too, amongst others) but i'm keen to scratch the menu part of the disc, cos listening to the drum & bass with "alright" and "yeah" sampled over and over gives me the willies.

i tried getting into deadwood by hiring it, but my local vid shop had had the first disc of season 1 stolen. i did hire the second disc, but even that far into the tale, i had no idea who was who and what was what. good luck to anyone trying to jump in further down the track! happy end to this tale though - i found the season 1&2 box set at my local jb hifi for $90. that was a fine weekend.

as for jodie pfarr and her "preview" - i gave up buying the tv guide here (i'm in perth) because the critic told us every minute detail about most tv shows prior to screening. i now buy thursday's age or rely on the net to tell me what's playing when. incidentally, igt caught me out for the first time this week - did you have boston legal on monday night?

love the show and lively discussion folks - keep up the good work!

Ooooooooo. I forgot it was for the last ten years.

The Daily Show - really? Don't get me wrong, I love it/him/both of them/all of them, but it's hardly groundbreaking stuff...

West Wing must be in the GAT as should The Daily Show!!!!

Sports Night is a great show, bought it from the US on Sorkin's reputation alone and have not been disappointed. If I am not watching it, it is out on a loan as my West Wing loving friends can not get enough of Dan and Casey.

I think the GAT definition from the first airing needs to be re-stated: my understanding is that it was only about shows in the last 10 years - is that correct? I thought it was also about how these shows have contributed to the television landscape in its broadest sense, not just a bunch of favourite shows.
That said, West Wing should DEFINITELY be included, for exactly the reasons Jimbo stated and Sorkin's contribution of incredibly wordy dialogue - although, perhaps that honour should be bestowed on Dawson's Creek instead?

And speaking of dialogue (ooh, that's practically a pleonasm): although I haven't yet had the pleasure of watching Deadwood (is that sale still on at JB?), I suspect that the writing style of it and John From Cincinnati are very similar, as I find JFC more and more Shakespearean as I watch... I see a lot of A Midsummer Night's Dream in it, particularly - apart from the overt Christian overtones, which Milch has said is about spirituality rather than Christianity, plus all the stuff about monadism - and it's easily a show you can rewind/pause to drink in the dense dialogue.
I think there's something odd about the acting too, Ross, but I see it more as a reflection of their fractured lives and souls. I think it suits the nature of the story - snapshots (through a camera?...all those references to Cass' camera) of how they are, how they got there, how they're dealing, hints of where it might all be going...
I think it's a very intriguing show and will be watching intently - I guess that means I love it!
As for your girlfriend who flicks matches, Josh - she sounds just like Kat to your Andy in Weeds.

Re: Golden Age of Television. There are some important misses in there, its certainly a segment that shouldn't be ending so soon. On a cultural level; both Star Trek and Doctor Who, Life on Mars is another one if you thinking of programmes in terms of writing. Lucy Ball is another (its the show that basically set up the sitcom 3 camera studio show). The Prisoner, both in terms of writing and idea. M*A*S*H (really is a landmark show). Hill Street Blues for bringing the idea of the grand narrative to mainstream TV (apart from soaps that is) Black Adder the second (again both in terms of writing and idea). Firefly, perhaps one of the best shows ever to never make it on mainstream TV (its life after TV on DVD was strong enough to get a film deal). Again the scope of story and writing are fantastic here. These are just off the top of my head. So The Golden Age of Television is far from over.

Brett, I agree with Rob. Sports Night just gets better as it goes along. Sorkin and Schlamme obviously start to gain more control - the laugh track does disappear after a few eps. But more than that, it's vey definitely the genesis of the Wing. Even a couple of the SN story lines are replicted in the early seasons of TWW.

And the dialogue, as always, crackles!

There was nothing happening in the 45 minutes you ran over time! It was all just filler!

That is all the show is, just filler.

PS: RE: Sports Night

A must-watch episode is "The Cut Man Cometh" in season two.

Brett: stick with Sports Night. It's lightweight, of course, compared to West Wing. It is after all a sit-com. The laugh track is done away with at some point after a few episodes. It's very much about the buddy thing, which Sorkin seems to have in all his TV shows and which he does well. I really got to like the Dan and Casey characters and their banter. Joshua Malina's character Jeremy is also at the centre of some very witty repartee, much as his Will Bailey was in West Wing. I don't know if I'd choose it in preference to meatier, prime-time shows but it's fine light fodder and I suppose a must for Sorkin fans. Like me.

Maybe there's some payment system where whoever's in control of the production gets paid on the basis of minutes going to air. I think a penalty fine system for programmes going overtime would cut out this crap. I wonder if that's the secret of Eddie's money piles - overtime payments.

Thankfully it's over for another year and I've got my fingers crossed it doesn't come back for another go at it.

Coincidentally, speaking of Sorkin, I've just watched the pilot of Sports Night, looking to explore his early work and understand the Family Guy quote from a tripping kid, "I finally gets Aaron Sorkin's Sports Night: It's a comedy that's too good to be funny." There's a very odd, understated laugh track that I almost thought was part of the sound design, initially. I can't say there was anything remotely funny in the first episode but I'd expect there'd be a lot of time spent on setups and exposition.

Motherfucking spaztards at Ten.

The Big Brother Finale went for so long because the voting was so close? Huh? How the fuck does the closeness of the voting change the running time?

The phone lines close at a certain time - and there is a winner or a loser. A computer counts the votes, a winner is announced. How does the number of votes affect the running time?

As if they just spontaneously decided to show that pathetic parade of the "float" driving down the road with cheesy disco music because the votes were close! Riiight. That was obviously planned ahead, how did they not account for it in the schedule?

Speaking of schedules, why not just cut the flashback sequences if you are running over time? There was nothing happening in the 45 minutes you ran over time! It was all just filler!

But for the love of cunting fuck, didn't you plan this as a big event? Couldn't you have worked out how long all that shit was going to take ahead of time and allowed for it? It's not rocket science, for Richard Wilkins' sake!!!! Yet you moved Torchwood back to an earlier starting time than the previous weeks.

Morons.

Or at least let him fly with the magic mushies.

Marieke?? Screw that! Se ain't no fourth Boxcutter! Where are the runs on the board??

And agree entirely about The West Wing. How could you leave out a show which managed to gain a massive free-to-air audience in the States despite being incredibly smart? That combination is just pure genius.

But someone really needs to put Sorkin back on the crackpipe.

ok - just throwin' in a really obvious GAT - the west wing?!

perfect - no. shmaltzy, idealistic, american propaganda - maybe. But in terms of writing & directing on US network television - it stood out there a lot.

also - Mighty Boosh? Daily Show? X-Files? Grass Roots? - im not nessesarily definate that they should be there - but there's good discussions in a lot of these, i reckons.

I'm half way through the aired episodes of John from Cincinnati; episode 4 was the one I watched tonight. I like the array of quirks and clowns, much like there were in Deadwood, and on that topic, I've counted four Deadwood actors in it so far. I love the Shakespearean soliloquies which function explanatorily to fill us in on what has occurred, hint at what may be heading our way and suggest some of the innermost formative thoughts of our most colourful protagonists. That these no longer issue forth from the foul but entrancing mouth of Al Swearengen while being serviced orally down below certainly lends a more muted, less urgent air to the proceedings.

The supernatural theme is hotting up, literally so, in terms of Butchie's implants and Cass's nipple rings. And there are some marvellous lines:

"This can only attract new types of shitheel into that boy’s life. Which wasn’t short of shitheels before." (the Ed O'Neil character)

. . .

Barry: (As he slowly approached the door to room 24) Do you hear the dead man singing within, gentlemen?

Ramon: I’m half deaf from the leaf blower.

Barry: No, attorney Dickstein?

Dickstein: Ah, surfer’s ear. Exostosis of the ear canal.

Barry: I alone then am favored by that jovially croaking post-coital falsetto, winsomely caricaturing Debbie Boone? (He begins humming and singing “You light up my life”, as he quickly grabs the door and slams it shut)

. . .

Ripper stuff, especially should one find oneself withdrawing raggedly from Deadwood, an unfortunate and bleak scenario I am happy to announce has not been my misfortune to experience, for I have series three of that frontier adventure ahead of me still.

Rob Boxcutter

I meant to ask on the show - anybody out there watching John? Love to hear what you think...